Ukraine vs Russia: Who has the moral high ground?

[TokenLiberal]

Since you seem adamant about this "might makes right" thing, I'll humor you: I think it's completely morally bankrupt and has no place in modern society. It justifies slavery, imperialism, and more bad stuff. It conflicts directly with my core values, most importantly my belief that people have a right to basic freedom. What do you think?

[NobodySpecial268]

I think first of all we should get on the same page as to which sources to use. The sources you are using are both owned by the Russian state. Do you think that relying on these sources is going to give you an accurate picture of reality?

Would you rather I read the only Western press? I guess we would be on the same page then, literally.

Here in Australia, the state owns two broadcasting concerns. The ABC (Australian Broadcasting Commission) and SBS (Special Broadcasting Service). There are also a few commercial stations that broadcast fluff for consumption by the public. None of our broadcasters have ever said a good thing about Russia, and were extremely pro-Ukraine when the conflict began.

In hindsight, one can see the narrative of the American and British governments as the "correct" point of view in the press. Australia is still very much a British colony under the rule of the Crown. Same as Canada. Though no one likes to admit it ; )

So if I want to learn about Russia, and Russia's point of view, the Australian media is not the place to go. Nor is the European, nor American media. So why not read the Russian media sites such as RussiaToday? Or TASS?

I am sure anyone can check the facts of the referendums in the regions if one wishes. Do you honestly think that TASS or RT would falsify historical fact?

[TokenLiberal]

Yes if you want the kremlin's point of view, read their media. Is that the only point of view you're interested in, in our quest to determine if their invasion of Ukraine was morally right?

Why not stick to the facts? Wikipedia seems a safe enough way to get a minimally biased picture of the situation.

I am sure anyone can check the facts of the referendums in the regions if one wishes. Do you honestly think that TASS or RT would falsify historical fact?

I expect them to parrot the official position of the Russian state, which is obviously very interested in legitimizing the war any way they can. Do you think it's believable that 96% of Crimea's inhabitants voted to join Russia, with a turnout of 81%?

[Michigan Swampbuck]

Since you seem adamant about this "might makes right" thing, I'll humor you: I think it's completely morally bankrupt and has no place in modern society. It justifies slavery, imperialism, and more bad stuff. It conflicts directly with my core values, most importantly my belief that people have a right to basic freedom. What do you think?

It can go much farther and justify ethnic cleansing, ask any Neo-Nazi.

If all people have the right to freedom, they also have the right to be enslaved in a Satanic worldview. So, you have the right to self-defense and self-preservation to counter those who try to limit your freedom, and the best defense is a good offense.

You have zero rights when you can't, or won't defend them. Now self-defense doesn't necessarily include an eye for an eye either, just ask Qui Chang-Caine. So inflicting more damage to your enemy isn't the best solution if your moral high ground is self-defense. 

I say, kick-ass to the last man is better than taking that last trip to the shower house. Then again, there is the "run away" or "join the winning side" strategies for survival. I should try brewing up some vodka this season along with the beer, wine, and white lightening I normally would.

[TokenLiberal]

Is all of that your actual opinion, or are you playing advocate of the devil?

[NobodySpecial268]

Otherwise, you're asking for it by looking weak and unprepared. You are hapless prey to the wolves at your door and will conform to the natural law of the survival of the fittest.

Why thankyou : )

The Crimea has long been coveted by Euro wolves. Someoine like Russia needs to protect it. The same with the other regions.

What you say above is my understanding of what happened with the Ukraine conflict. The regions are all Russian speaking and are essentially Russian. That it is unfortunate that the borders were drawn up that way, was said by Putin himself. When Ukraine started to ban the Russian language and punish the people for being Russian, that is, as I understand the situation, why Russia stepped in. Though I recall Putin saying in one of his addresses that his biggest regret was not acting sooner.

[NobodySpecial268]

Yes if you want the kremlin's point of view, read their media. Is that the only point of view you're interested in, in our quest to determine if their invasion of Ukraine was morally right?

Why not stick to the facts? Wikipedia seems a safe enough way to get a minimally biased picture of the situation.

I expect them to parrot the official position of the Russian state, which is obviously very interested in legitimizing the war any way they can. Do you think it's believable that 96% of Crimea's inhabitants voted to join Russia, with a turnout of 81%?

96% of the turnout voted to join Russia.

81% of the eligible population voted.

Yes I tend to think that the figures are correct.

To protect small new regions, stronger people sometimes need to step in and protect them. That is what being civilised is all about. We protect the weak and vulnerable to give them a chance to become. We do this with women and children, men protect them because they are not as strong as men. One might say that children are the future, and women create the future - just my point of view.

So "yes" Mr Liberal, in the context of my words immediately above, I would agree that Putin did indeed make the correct pragmatic choice.

[Michigan Swampbuck]

I'm not really interested in entertaining hypotheticals unless they further some kind of point. It doesn't get me any closer to understanding your perspective. Does that make sense?

How I did I miss this gem? I have no point!

In addition, I thought that discussing morals is hypothetical, considering it is an abstract concept inside the human mind.

Wow! All that babbling I've been doing is pointless, unless I want to derail this topic like happens so often to yours truly!

For this I will offer the following . . .

[TokenLiberal]

How I did I miss this gem? I have no point!

Do you? My bad, then. What point of yours is a dive into the "might makes right" hypothetical furthering?

In addition, I thought that discussing morals is hypothetical, considering it is an abstract concept inside the human mind.

Well, I'm asking about what's in your mind. We humans tend to develop our own version of morality, our own opinions on what's right and wrong. Exploring our differences there is the purpose of the thread. We can sit here and explore hypothetical after hypothetical, but I'd rather discuss our actual opinions. Do you understand where I'm coming from there?

[TokenLiberal]

96% of the turnout voted to join Russia.

81% of the eligible population voted.

Yes I tend to think that the figures are correct.

So you are taking the Russian state at their word. Obviously you're going to think they're in the right, then. I understand. The next question, which I hope you're willing to answer, is: Why do you trust Russian state media more than Western media? I assume you know there is no freedom of the press in Russia.

To protect small new regions, stronger people sometimes need to step in and protect them. That is what being civilised is all about. We protect the weak and vulnerable to give them a chance to become.  We do this with women and children, men protect them because they are not as strong as men.  One might say that children are the future, and women create the future - just my point of view.

So "yes" Mr Liberal, in the context of my words immediately above, I would agree that Putin did indeed make the correct pragmatic choice.

So Putin is protecting the Ukrainian people by invading their country and killing a hundred thousand of them. What is he protecting them from? NATO?