I've often wondered if LD'ing is just really more a product of not sleeping well, or some other kind of a sleep disorder.  I can't honestly say I get the sleep I would like to get most nights, and I've wondered if LD's are just some space where I'm half asleep and half awake.

I don't know.  I definitely have them though.

It was actually kind of funny how I even discovered what they were called.  For years I called them something completely different.  I kept seeing people talking about this thing called "lucid dream" in paranormal forums like on ATS, but I never read any of those posts.  Then one day I came across some article which described the experience to a "T".  It wasn't until the end of the article where they mentioned it was called "lucid dreaming", and then I was like ..."OHHHHhhhhhh, THAT's what it's called!!!". 

I guess I still don't understand why people think this is some paranormal thing.  I used to know this girl who was really into the whole dream and dream analysis thing.  Her big thing was training yourself to remember your dreams after you woke up.  She said this had some connection to whether you dream in color or black & white (but you don't perceive it this way in your dreams).  I'd never thought about that before, and I honestly believe it was me trying to remember my dreams in detail after I woke up which led to the ability to have these lucid dreams.

In any case, there's no paranormal about it, at least not for me.  I don't see or experience anything abnormal, like ghosts or other weird shit.  Of course I sometimes have dreams which involve people who have passed on, but it's not like they're ghosts, but rather like they're still here (things like parents and friends who have passed).  I don't think that's anything out of the ordinary though; most people have dreams about loved ones.

I will say this though, and I've said it repeatedly.  By far...the most disturbing lucid dreams are the 'dream inside of a dream' kind, like the little Russian dolls.  Those dreams are straight-up troubling.  I've had some which were so unbelievably real that it took me over an hour (seriously) after I woke up to confirm I wasn't still dreaming.  I don't like those dreams at all!  Even if they're not like nightmare type dreams, I still don't like them.  I had one instance where I woke up and sat on the edge of the bed for a good 40 minutes convinced it was still a dream and I was going to wake up from it any moment.  Worse, I've had dreams where I was dreaming (in my dream), and woke up (in my dream), and knew I was having a dream inside of another dream, and woke up from that dream (again still dreaming) and was sitting on the edge of the bed wondering if I was dreaming (in my dream)...only to really wake up and then not be able to figure out if I was still dreaming or not.

And I guess the big differentiator is the realism of these types of dreams.  They are hyper-realistic, almost impossible to distinguish from a non-dream state.  Thank God I don't sleep walk, and I never have!  I can't imagine having one of those dreams and sleep walking at the same time.

I'd love to see an EEG of what the brain is doing during one of these dreams, compared to a normal dream.  The vast majority of my dreams are just normal ones, but every now and then I'll have one of these lucid ones.  They're definitely notably different.  Just a regular lucid dream (i.e. not one of the dream inside of dream ones) are fairly pleasant, and some even very enjoyable.  Other times I don't dream at all.  So, it's kind of a "fielder's choice" for the brain when I go to bed whether I'll dream at all, or just have a normal dream, or have one of these lucid dreams.

That has kind of been my experience(s).

I'm with you on LD not being a paranormal thing. I'm of the view that this is something most folks can do at least a few times in their lives.

Quote:Of course I sometimes have dreams which involve people who have passed on, but it's not like they're ghosts, but rather like they're still here (things like parents and friends who have passed).  I don't think that's anything out of the ordinary though; most people have dreams about loved ones.

I quite agree with you there too. I have found the deceased don't go too far away.

That brings up an interesting concept: shared interactive lucid dreams.

Like this:

   

I just remembered something about remembering dreams.

When waking in the morning in that half conscious state, if you move the physical body, one forgets the dream. If one stays motionless, one can think about the dream.

(04-02-2025, 06:40 AM)NobodySpecial268 Wrote: ...

That brings up an interesting concept: shared interactive lucid dreams.

Like this:

I'm not really sure how I would characterize those kinds of dreams.  I'm not sure I'd call them 'shared' though.

For example, if I dream of someone who has passed and they are alive (in my dream), then I don't really realize they are dead (in my dream).  So, it's not like I go..."Oh hey...you're back from the afterlife!" (in my dream; it's more like life just goes on as it normally did when they were alive.

Kind unrelated, but something else I wanted to mention is...as we've noted, one of the big differences between regular dreams and LD's is the ability to read things, and the ability to control things in LD's.  BUT...I would equate this ability to using a keyboard or calculator with sticky keys...where you have to punch the same key several time to make it work.  Now, this may just be something which is specific to me because I type really, really, fast (or so I'm told).  It drives me crazy to have sticky keys because I have to go back about 8-10 words to fix it.  In other words, I'm way down the road by the time I see the issue.  So, not having instant tactile feedback and response on a device is something I am hyper-sensitive to, and obviously in a dream nothing is real , but I notice those things bigly.

FCD - I must remember to ask LD'er girl if she can read in those dreams.

And yeah, all my work is mostly with the deceased.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ksihkehe put me onto this video some time ago.

For everyone, here is a video on Remote Viewing (RV). It is Joe McMoneagle reminiscing on his time as an RV'er in the CIA's Stargate Project. The point I would like to make is; from listening to Joe's speaking, the RV'ing sounds to me a lot like Lucid Dreaming. I think they are the same principal in essence.

It is a long video, and I enjoyed listing to the old war stories and Joe's experiences RV'ing.

Joe McMoneagle - CIA's Project Stargate | SRS #95

UPDATE - I wanted to provide a brief update of something I found interesting from last night.

Last night I fell asleep on our reclining couch with the heat and message function on.  My bride said I looked pretty comfortable with the blanket so she just left me there when she went to bed (I was definitely in comfort heaven).  I woke up around 2am and decided to retire to our bedroom for another hour of sleep (I usually get up at 3am).  My hip has been bothering me lately, so I got a pillow between my calves and ankles and conked out for what I thought would be an hour's worth of sleep.  Well, I must have been really tired because I actually slept for another 4+ hours (which is a good thing for me...I sleep really poorly).  During this 2nd sleep segment I wound up having a 'sort-of' LD.  I say 'sort-of' because it was strange, and this is what I wanted to relay here.

The subject of my dream is not relevant here, other than to say it was, well, ominous (i.e. not pleasant).  There was no soaring, but I could vaguely tell it was an LD (sometimes).  I can remember wondering (in my dream) whether I was having a LD.  I concluded (in my dream) that I was not having an LD.  So, the first point here is, I had a level of consciousness in my dream to ask myself this question...and determine an answer.  It wasn't a vague question either; I specifically wondered if it was a "Lucid Dream".  The second interesting point is...I also concluded I was not experiencing a dream, that I was in fact awake.  I didn't realize this difference, of course, because...I was actually still dreaming.  (confusing, I know).  This concerned me. 

Fast forward to waking up.  When my furry bestie and 90 lb. Australian Shepard landed squarely on my ballsack and started licking my face, there was no question about waking up...like instantly!  As I sat there, I then realized that I had actually been dreaming when I asked myself if I was still asleep (and was still asleep) and concluded I was awake.  At that time, I had hoped I was still asleep and dreaming, but my conclusion was that I was not (which was troubling).

The bottom line here is...this was another permutation of lucid dreaming.  It was a level of consciousness in between a dream state and an awake state, a nether world of sorts.  Per my bride, I just looked like I was peacefully asleep the whole time until when my dog jumped on me..."Morning, Dad!!!  Love ya!"

(04-11-2025, 10:50 AM)NobodySpecial268 Wrote: FCD - I must remember to ask LD'er girl if she can read in those dreams.

And yeah, all my work is mostly with the deceased.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ksihkehe put me onto this video some time ago.

For everyone, here is a video on Remote Viewing (RV). It is Joe McMoneagle reminiscing on his time as an RV'er in the CIA's Stargate Project. The point I would like to make is; from listening to Joe's speaking, the RV'ing sounds to me a lot like Lucid Dreaming. I think they are the same principal in essence.

It is a long video, and I enjoyed listing to the old war stories and Joe's experiences RV'ing.

Joe McMoneagle - CIA's Project Stargate | SRS #95

One thing that stands out to me is howLD'ind, RVing, deep meditation, channeling, etc. all seem to be related  on some level; close cousins,if you will. Aw, the many doors in our mind!

I have strange dreams most nights and during my dreams I'm always analyizing them, trying to figure out what the hidden message might be.
For example, last night I dreamed I was supporting my baby brother (who's been deceased for 4 years now) and decided by job as a ballistic technician wsn't paying enough so I'd go back to school to become a nurse. That's when the argument started. What college would accept a 75 y/o nursing student? And who would even hire a nurse of such advanced age? 
Not sure if the messsage is my time to act is in the past or I underestimate my self worth in the present.

Carl  Jung believed nothing impoortant happens to us that we don't dream about first, and I think this is probably true. Years ago I was living in Alaska and would often wake up because we were having a massive earthquake; it was three years after the Good Friday quake and people were still on edge.
One morning I had an 'inner knowing' that a loved one was going to die, with a time line detail. If I had dreamed about it I didn't remember the dream,, but about four months later the event happened.
It was so sudden, unexpected and tragic that if I hadn't had some sort of forewarning my mind probably would have snapped beyond repair.
I guess that's what started me on taking the dream world seriously, unlike my best half who insists dreams are just dreams, with no meaning. Maybe that's why he's had the same nightmare scenario most of his life?

(04-19-2025, 02:25 PM)Nugget Wrote: One thing that stands out to me is howLD'ind, RVing, deep meditation, channeling, etc. all seem to be related  on some level; close cousins,if you will. Aw, the many doors in our mind!

You're correct. Part of what I've been trying to put together is what parts of the brain, and the ranges of activity in those parts of the brain, that are involved with different categories of everything under this umbrella. There is some data on it and I posted some of it in these threads, but it's not as comprehensive as I'd like and nowhere near enough to set up a working model. There's enough to know it's not all being caused by, or isn't causing, the exact same brain patterns.

I won't touch channeling, but I include it and those that do it in my studies. I'm not claiming that it's always the case, but I believe that in the vast majority of cases the person being used for the purposes of channeling is not able to make an informed decision about what they're accepting into their life. I also have found channeled entities come in two varieties most commonly. There are powerful entities that dispense vague advice that is fairly generic. There are also channeled entities that seem to be wayward tricksters. These are charismatic at first and happy to engage, but eventually seem to display traits that can only be described as sociopathic. How much of this is actually moderated by humans involved in the process, either the proctor of sessions or the more independent channel/medium that operates solo, is hard to tell. The research done on this subset of paranormal research is either mostly nonexistent or isn't public.

If you're interested in channeling, The Siren Call of Lonely Ghosts may be of interest to you. The author makes some of the same mistake that many researchers do when pursuing paranormal and occult topics, but does track down the claims made in the real world with eerily close results. The results didn't show the entities to be totally truthful, but they were correct about some interesting things. In the end, it's hard not to see his experiences with channeling as being at least partially responsible for his death. There's a documentary about it. Another book of interest in this category, though there's more related to benign poltergeist activity, is The Vertical Plane by Ken Webster. A summary and some additional research is presented here. I'm familiar with the author and have collaborated with them on the topic for a few years. They're reporting in good faith and I offer a very rare endorsement of their dedication to honesty.

The OP is just a primer. Ostensibly, this is a complete package for having a lucid dream if you haven't. It's also good for increasing the frequency or gaining more control of those dreams you already have. The discipline required for it is fairly minimal and it doesn't take a ton of time, but the practices also help get the mind ready for more intense efforts.

I'm going to be coming back to reply to everything I can from earlier in the thread eventually, just as it relates to the OP topic. I've been following along. I want to cover as much as I can in as few posts as possible to keep it somewhat organized. I'm going to have to reread.

Edit to add: Channeling is too far removed from the topic to go into too much in this thread. If or when part 4 is posted, I expect it would be a good launchpad for individual threads covering these other subcategories. I would encourage others to start those threads if they're topics of intense interest for them and to build on what I lay out if that adds value. On the topic of channeling I would add what I could, but it's not of high enough interest to me to put an OP together. Part of that is because of my ethical issues with it, but it's also just not as high on my list. 

(04-02-2025, 02:12 PM)FCD Wrote: Kind unrelated, but something else I wanted to mention is...as we've noted, one of the big differences between regular dreams and LD's is the ability to read things, and the ability to control things in LD's.  BUT...I would equate this ability to using a keyboard or calculator with sticky keys...where you have to punch the same key several time to make it work.  Now, this may just be something which is specific to me because I type really, really, fast (or so I'm told).  It drives me crazy to have sticky keys because I have to go back about 8-10 words to fix it.  In other words, I'm way down the road by the time I see the issue.  So, not having instant tactile feedback and response on a device is something I am hyper-sensitive to, and obviously in a dream nothing is real , but I notice those things bigly.

As I mentioned to Nugget above, I'm coming back through to hit everything I can from earlier in the thread. There's a lot, so it'll be a long post. Your experience with reading in these states, as you've expressed it, is atypical. I will elaborate as much as I can in that larger reply post and perhaps, when you next encounter a situation where it can be observed, you may find the knot easier to untangle. If nothing else, what you observe would add to the foundational information I have on the topic. Since your experience is atypical, anything that can be distilled from the experience or insights gained are valuable.

I think you've also only described what I would refer to as partial lucidity in the prior posts. That's a state I'm familiar with and experienced a fair number of times, but the degree of control possible and the amount of real-time awareness possessed during those events is not at 100%. I think that being a highly practical person that experiences things in the moment, with full awareness and the focus of attention that comes from years of disciplined problem solving, is part of why you have both frequent dream recall and experiences with lucidity. The real dividing line between lucidity and and normal dreaming is fuzzy, so I tend to think of it as a sliding scale. At the very fringe where lucidity first starts is just the singular idea that what is being experienced isn't right, even if it's just a shadow of a thought. Outright realization of experiencing a dream state is the next milestone, which is moving closer to bringing the full "I AM" into play. Once you have that recognition of being in a dream state, options open up for the kinds of things that defy physics in the physical space. At that point, the degree of control and ability to maintain control become things that can be trained.

What you're experiencing, and have been experiencing naturally, is what people are expected to start experiencing when they use the methods outlined in the OP. For whatever reason there are people that are naturally more inclined to experience lucid dreams of some kind. As you suggested, sleep disturbances or irregularities can be a factor. Either due to underlying neurological function, from environmental factors like stress or lifestyle choices, or from some synergy between the those conditions, lucid dreams and sleep paralysis can manifest. Some of those factors can be controlled, either to alleviate sleep disturbances or to increase the likelihood of conditions favorable to lucid dreaming.

Replying to your prior posts will provide some information that will be helpful for others perhaps, but I suspect that there's not much in the scope of what the OP tried to establish that will enhance your experiences substantially. The vast majority of people that do the sort of protocols that I outlined peak out when they're experiencing what you experience naturally. Usually, that's enough for them. They either do the protocols often enough to maintain the frequency and intensity of experiences at that point or they decide that it's not worth the effort for what they get out of it. It's quite rare, in my experience, for people to be interested in the next steps for exploring to push beyond where you are. The level of effort required just isn't worth it for most people and even with my intense interest in the topic it's not something I can sustain over long periods.

Your experiences would make many people envious. Most people have either no experience or very isolated experiences with lucidity. For those that lack discipline and were not fortunate enough to have latent talent/abilities, your experiences will remain elusive to them forever.

Thank for the detailed posts. They're going to provide fertile soil for me to provide more information and introduce details not included in the OP.

(04-11-2025, 10:50 AM)NobodySpecial268 Wrote: I must remember to ask LD'er girl if she can read in those dreams.

I would be interested in hearing a detailed account of her experiences with reading. Writing, clocks, even simple images or symbols, and where her thresholds for understanding them are. In my opinion the breakdown in the process is found somewhere in the portions of the brain that are responsible for language processing. The processing still occurs just fine and the meaning of the materials is apparent, but in most cases the writing doesn't hold up to examination of all the component parts.

That's in most cases, but not all. There are rare cases where people have no problem with examining writing. Either through training themselves, due to latent talent, or because of their neurological architecture. This is just from the information I've encountered though. My information incomplete. I have seen evidence that even if I'm correct or was correct about this at some time, that these kinds of things can become more or less common over time. In the past decade, overall in the paranormal space, I would say that the baseline rate of experiences has increased and the intensity has increased for those already having experiences.

What I think is probably a useful device for a metaphor is a QR code. We can see a QR code and know it's a QR code. We can scan it with our phone or a device and the message in the QR code is translated for us. There's a lot that goes on in that phone to translate a bunch of data that means nothing to us. In dream states our brain function shifts, activity levels in different parts of the brain change, their functions are enhanced or suppressed.

In this QR metaphor we can consider the language and symbol processing center of our brain to be the device we use to translate visual configurations into their abstract meaning. The device can still function in dream states and we understand the meaning of words and symbols we read, but the individual components of the material consumed evade intense scrutiny. Just as we are unable to meaningfully examine individual blocks within a QR code, in most cases the words and letters in our dreams are not meaningful as subsets of the whole. That doesn't mean that we can't learn about the details of a QR code or figure out how it works, but that becomes a distinct cognitive operation that is not the same as translating the whole code into a completed message.

That's a very fussy description of what I think is happening, but the information available seems to narrow the window to somewhere in that language center. Either it's playing a direct role or one of the pathways through there is involved, in my opinion. More data is needed and we have few tools to get better data. Your friend and FCD might both be able to provide details that further narrow down exactly where we need to look. It's fussy business, getting down into wiring of the brain. Having information from people that have full faculties could provide vital to figuring out how to train it for people that don't.

It would be very difficult to establish an experimental design to prove this. More intense and detailed study of brain function in lucid states in general needs to be pursued. With the information those studies provide it may be possible to start forming a method for isolating specific things to measure in real time on an EKG. The trouble is, there is no known method for correlating specific experiences in a dream state with the time in which they occur in our material space. The studies I have reviewed have only sought to get readings from less specific states and rely on self-reporting from the experiencer to the researcher. There is no way, that is publicly acknowledged, for us to penetrate to dream environment of an individual experiencer.

It's a difficult thing to study. Most of my insight relies on academic studies that are from fields that have neglected to give these topics serious energy. Psychology, neurology, and endocrinology, only gain much value in this research when combined with significant practical experience. That practical experience isn't as expensive as the academic data coming from labs, but it's not free by any means and it will consume as much of your time as your able to give it.

It is indeed a very interesting experience, one which I attribute directly to sleeping very poorly except for on rare occasions.  On a somewhat laughable note, I sometimes wonder if this ability isn't my mind simply just rejoicing in getting some actual "sleep".  I think this may also be why I remember the events so clearly, but I'm not certain though.

As I have noted on several occasions above; I don't have LD's all the time, and I never know when I am going to have one.  They just sort of happen.  I do pay attention though, although I'm not sure why I pay attention.  At first, I had to sort out that I was dreaming at all (which is kind of hard to explain).  When you go from an awake state to a dream state, you don't necessarily "know" you are dreaming, and this is what I am referring to.  That took a while.  And...it wasn't something I was necessarily trying to 'refine', per-se; it just happened.  Once I was able to 'realize' what was happening (in my dream state), I definitely did try to exploit whatever abilities I might have (in my dream state) (i.e. soaring, reading, controlling events, etc.).  Also, as I've noted, 'soaring' is by far the coolest part, and I love those dreams, but they are very rare (i.e. maybe once or twice a year).  I will intentionally stay in bed, even fall back asleep, to continue with one of those type dreams.  And here's a factoid which is kind of funny.  As noted, I can wake up and use the restroom, and then fall back asleep and 'continue' a dream.  When it's a 'soaring' dream, I definitely 'try' to do this.  But, what's weird is...my 'soaring' ability diminishes the closer I get to being awake.  So, sometimes I'll fall back asleep and I can 'soar' a little bit, but maybe just a few feet.  I can tell, then, that I'm close to waking up.  It's kind of like running out of gas in a car.  I know this sounds weird, but that's about the only way I can describe it.

A few months ago I had to do a sleep study for sleep apnea.  This is where you go into a facility and they hook you up to about (75) different sensors and you're supposed to 'sleep'.  I went in hoping I'd have one of these dreams so I could look at the EEG charts afterward.  But sadly, this experience was such a bad experience that not only couldn't I LD, I couldn't sleep at all.  I wound up laying there for six hours and just being pissed off the entire time, so I couldn't fall asleep.  And, just to give you an idea of just how mad I was...I'm still angry about that whole experience fully five months later...so much so that I know I would never be able to go to one of those facilities ever again.  The whole experience just straight-up pissed me off (like seriously).  And, without going into a lot of detail as to why, the main reason was...they stuck all these (75) sensors on me to where I couldn't move, and then said..."Okay, now go to sleep...like now".  Now, I don't know about anyone else, but if you tell me to...'go to sleep'...probably the one of the last things I'm going to do is go to sleep.  There was no explanations, no nothing, just..."Go to sleep".  You're in this hospital like setting, and they just turn out the lights and expect you to immediately fall asleep.  I was so pissed off after this event I told my PCP I'd probably never do that again, and he told me my experience was very common (and inexcusable, as they're just in it for the insurance money).  GRRRRRRR!!!

Anyway, I'd hoped to get some intel about lucid dreaming from that experience, and all I got was the need for a handful of Rolaids!

Ksihkehe: I don't have a favorable opinion of channeling because it seems most of the people who do it aren't balanced enough to be doing it. It seems to be one of the easiest abilities to abuse and misuse.

I'm not sure if I 'lucid dream' but in most of my dreams I am aware once odd events start happening that I'm dreaming. I've never tried to control the narative, though; I just try to figure out why I'd be having such a strange dream and move on to the next adventure.

I do have flying dreams occasionally, but once I realize I'm flying I float back down. ...probably because I'm not comfortable with heights OR flying! lol