(03-27-2025, 04:24 AM)TokenLiberal Wrote: It doesn't really matter how many people on my side of the political spectrum you (think you) know. You clearly don't know what a truly far left position looks like, or have not been paying attention to my posts, if you think I'm close to +10 on that scale. Your continued suggestion that you know me better than I know myself after reading a couple of my posts is condescending. I can look past it because I'm used to it, but I hope you are at least open to the possibility that if we disagree on where I fall on the political spectrum, maybe you are the one who is missing something.

Whatever.  Okay fine; I have no idea anything about you.  As far as I know, you're from Mars...okay?  I'm the one missing things here.  I'm an idiot.  Is that what you want to hear?  Fine.  I really don't care.

Do you agree on the questions or not.  I'm getting tired of fucking around here.  Time to shit or get off the pot.  (and if you don't think I've been over the top nice so far, well, just ask around.  Compared to my usual self, I'm being so sticky sweet that I'm about ready to barf!).  Time to fish or cut bait.

Actually, I think I'm just going to answer the revised questions as is, and then be done with this discussion.  Maybe someone else will want to take up the discussion.  You know, I'm getting the sense that there's no discussion to be had to begin with.  It seems to me that in your mind, you are just going to continue to say I don't understand because I don't understand how liberals think.  So, basically, no matter what I say, you'll use this as an excuse to say you're right (and that I just don't understand).  If that's how this is gonna' go, then I'm out right now.

Your call.

(03-27-2025, 10:37 AM)FCD Wrote: Whatever.  Okay fine; I have no idea anything about you.  As far as I know, you're from Mars...okay?  I'm the one missing things here.  I'm an idiot.  Is that what you want to hear?  Fine.  I really don't care.

You came in and condescendingly stated that you appreciated my OP because it illustrated how people on the left don't even understand themselves. Are you surprised I'm calling you out on that? I don't think you're an idiot; that would be as premature of me to say as you saying I'm wrong about where I am on the political spectrum...

Quote:Do you agree on the questions or not.  I'm getting tired of fucking around here.  Time to shit or get off the pot.  (and if you don't think I've been over the top nice so far, well, just ask around.  Compared to my usual self, I'm being so sticky sweet that I'm about ready to barf!).  Time to fish or cut bait.

You can be as rude as you want to be, that really doesn't bother me, but I'm going to keep calling you out on it. If that's annoying to you, there's a simple solution: Be respectful ;)

Aren't we past the questions in the OP? They are just meant to be discussion starters, and that seems to have worked. I asked you many (more targeted) questions in my last long post, and hope I have answered yours to your satisfaction (if not, please let me know, I'll try again). A continued discussion would start with you answering them (selectively, if you wish).

Quote:Actually, I think I'm just going to answer the revised questions as is, and then be done with this discussion.  Maybe someone else will want to take up the discussion.  You know, I'm getting the sense that there's no discussion to be had to begin with.  It seems to me that in your mind, you are just going to continue to say I don't understand because I don't understand how liberals think. So, basically, no matter what I say, you'll use this as an excuse to say you're right (and that I just don't understand). If that's how this is gonna' go, then I'm out right now.

I don't care whether or not you understand how liberals think, I'm just making sure you at least have an accurate picture of my political views so we can have a discussion. Again, I think you either don't know what an extremely far left position looks like or have misjudged my positions. I wouldn't hold it against you either way. I did ask, if you remember, for examples of positions of mine that are extremely far left and you never gave any. When I then argue that you are probably missing something, that's grounds for you to abandon the whole discussion? I don't understand.

Take care.

I'm done with this conversation.

Have a nice day.

edit - It might surprise you to learn I had actually kind of looked forward to this discussion. I have since you joined, and I thought this thread might be a good entry point to do just that. That is, provided we could establish a level playing field before starting, a baseline. And, we needed to be able to do this without wasting a bunch of time. I can see that will not be possible without wading through a bunch of bullshit at every evolution, and I'm not willing to do that. It is abundantly clear you are trying to establish a bias advantage before even allowing the discussion to begin.

The bottom line is this...it really doesn't matter what I think about you, or liberals in general, and it doesn't matter what you think about me and/or conservatives in general. What you are continually trying to do is establish an advantage that you know something which I don't (i.e. that you have some inside track which you can use as a shield). It doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. All of that would come out in further conversation which we can't even seem to get started. So, it's pretty obvious this discussion (if it were ever even to begin) would just wind up going nowhere...for the exact same reasons nothing ever gets done in DC; the motivation is to just stall everything in endless bureaucracy and bickering about stuff that doesn't matter.

I am a cut to the chase kind of guy, and I don't really give a shit about all the other "noise".

I just felt I at least owed you an explanation for why I am disengaging from this discussion. I'm confident others will be along shortly to participate in my absence. I am certainly not pivotal to the conversation anyway.

Okay...now I really am done.

Have a nice day.

(03-27-2025, 10:37 AM)FCD Wrote:  So, basically, no matter what I say, you'll use this as an excuse to say you're right (and that I just don't understand). 

I could be wrong, but it sure seems like you've been arguning with an ATS mod who loathes America and thinks he knows far more than US citizens, even though he doesn't live here. 

He mostly gets ignored on the other site these days, so may be looking for more fertile ground.

It was kind of you to indulge him for as long as you did, FCD; you're a much nicer person than I.

(03-27-2025, 12:52 PM)FCD Wrote: It might surprise you to learn I had actually kind of looked forward to this discussion.  I have since you joined, and I thought this thread might be a good entry point to do just that.  That is, provided we could establish a level playing field before starting, a baseline.  And, we needed to be able to do this without wasting a bunch of time.  I can see that will not be possible without wading through a bunch of bullshit at every evolution, and I'm not willing to do that.  It is abundantly clear you are trying to establish a bias advantage before even allowing the discussion to begin.

Huh? Almost all of my questions are just asking you to expound upon points that you've made. It can be entirely on your terms if you're willing.

Quote:What you are continually trying to do is establish an advantage that you know something which I don't (i.e. that you have some inside track which you can use as a shield).  It doesn't matter.  It really doesn't matter.  All of that would come out in further conversation which we can't even seem to get started.

Seems to me it did start. You have the pick of the litter of subjects. Here's a list of subjects you made points about, after which I asked follow up questions:

- State level public education
- A public health insurance option necessitating socialism
- Waste, fraud, abuse in the federal government
- The dysfunction of the federal government
- Triage of spending taxpayer money
- Acting now and acting decisively to solve something (it's unclear what)
- The impossibility to have interventionist policy in an otherwise capitalist system
- Left-wing positions requiring a rewrite or dissolution of the constitution

These are points you made. I am asking follow up questions and clarifying my own position so we can get an actual discussion going, instead of talking past each other. This is how discussions are supposed to work. We reach mutual clarity about our positions, and then we debate their merits.

Quote:I am a cut to the chase kind of guy, and I don't really give a shit about all the other "noise".

Cut to what chase? What chase are you trying to get to? We have many subjects we can continue discussing, but you're just retreating for no reason.

Quote:I'm confident others will be along shortly to participate in my absence.

I'm not confident at all, unfortunately.

Frankly, it comes across like you have no interest in talking to me. As soon as I start asking hard questions, you run away. And if you really made an effort to understand where I'm coming from, you wouldn't continue to insist you know me better than I know myself. You've projected your preconceptions about liberals onto me and gave me no chance at all to prove them wrong. You say I keep telling you you don't understand, but it was you who first told me I don't understand myself. All I'm doing is countering that point, by saying it might be you who's missing something. And there you go, throwing a tantrum. I suppose the only way I can get you to talk to me is to just sit here and take it, but I'm not that docile. Without mutual respect, there can be no mutual understanding.

I hope you'll reconsider.

(03-27-2025, 02:45 PM)Nugget Wrote: I could be wrong, but it sure seems like you've been arguning with an ATS mod who loathes America and thinks he knows far more than US citizens, even though he doesn't live here. 

He mostly gets ignored on the other site these days, so may be looking for more fertile ground.

It was kind of you to indulge him for as long as you did, FCD; you're a much nicer person than I.

I don't loathe America. I want it to succeed, truly. If the US loses its position as the global hegemon, Western democracies everywhere (I'm in one) lose. I don't want a unipolar world where China dominates. I believe in democracy and capitalism, in inclusive institutions which enable upward mobility and prevent the accumulation of power in the hands of the few. The US, despite its flaws, embodies that ideology.

It is telling that you assume that, whenever someone disagrees with you about how the US government should proceed if it wants the country to succeed, it must mean they hate the country. From my perspective, if I were thinking like you, it would look like everyone who voted for Trump hates America. But I don't think that. I think they have a different perspective, a different opinion on what an effective government looks like. If you made a real effort to empathize with people on the other side, you'd understand this too. I hope one day you will. If you do, and I'm still here, I'll be happy to represent the left.

Okay...this is fun now.  You want answers...I'll give you answers! Just so you can never say I didn't answer your questions...I will answer your original questions from the OP..

#1 = -9.

#2  = +10

#3 = (Add in a few more presidents and I might answer)

#4 = FOX, Breitbart, NY Post, and Al Jazeera.  (among others).

#5 = US Government waste, and illegal immigration.  Fix?  Stop both!

#6 = Waste, Corruption, Bureaucracy and GRAFT!

#7 = Sure, but more explanation is required.  It's more complicated than just that.

#8 = No.  I think it is WAY over-funded, and I think it should be abolished altogether.  This belongs at the State level.

#9 = Yes, I'd get the federal government out of it, AND make it illegal for heathcare lobby to donate even one dollar to political candidates.  Period!

#10 = Yes.  Quotas, based on qualificaitons...with minimum requirements such as a employment and a "need".  

#11 = This is a non-question...fuck BOTH of them!  This isn't OUR war...period!

#12 = The SCOTUS ruled.  Case closed.  Go whine somewhere else!

#13 = The 80's were governed by conservative presidents.  Whomever told you this was some kind of "neo-liberal" time had drank too much bong water!!

#14 = Do your research before asking idiotic questions.  There have been tariffs, in both directions, for hundreds of years in America.  To characterize any tariffs as "Trump's" tariffs only shows your extreme bias...and the reason I'm not going to debate you further!

#15 = Read the fucking Constitution!  Don't make me do it for you!  The balance of power is clearly laid out, and not Biden, nor Trump, nor anyone else has any say in the matter, short of amending the Constitution.  Don't ask stupid questions and expect to get nice answers!  Like, really!!  That was a jackass question!

#16 = "Spy Fail", by James Bamford.  You should read it.  I know you won't, not all of it anyway, but it says a LOT!

#17 = LOL...people like YOU!

Okay, now I have responded to all of your questions.  Not my revised questions which I thought would have made for better conversation, but rather to yours from the OP alone.

Now you can never say I didn't respond, or come up with some other sideways argument which you seemingly just love to do.

Have a nice day.

(03-27-2025, 07:10 PM)FCD Wrote: Okay...this is fun now.  You want answers...I'll give you answers!  Just so you can never say I didn't answer your questions...I will answer your original questions from the OP..

I'm glad it's fun for you now, though I'm not sure what changed. I can and will absolutely say you didn't answer my questions. Like I said in a previous post, we're past the questions from the OP. We've already started a discussion based on them. Your answers to the questions in the OP are nearly all points you've already made before, and I already asked follow-up questions about here. Those are the questions I want answered, that would actually make progress in our discussion.

I'll respond to anything new.

Quote:#2  = +10

Does this mean you don't believe in having a government at all?

Quote:#9 = Yes, I'd get the federal government out of it, AND make it illegal for heathcare lobby to donate even one dollar to political candidates.  Period!

You can't make that illegal without reversing Citizens United. You understand that, right? Any law that restricts corporate political "speech" will be deemed unconstitutional. In your own words: "SCOTUS ruled, now go whine somewhere else."

Seems to me you do think it's important that CU is reversed, then. I'm glad we agree on that, after all.

Quote:#13 = The 80's were governed by conservative presidents.  Whomever told you this was some kind of "neo-liberal" time had drank too much bong water!!

This isn't a new point, and I don't like repeating myself, but you seem not to know what neoliberalism is. Did you even read my long post before you started retreating from the discussion? 

Neoliberalism is a conservative ideology.

Quote:#14 = Do your research before asking idiotic questions.  There have been tariffs, in both directions, for hundreds of years in America.  To characterize any tariffs as "Trump's" tariffs only shows your extreme bias...and the reason I'm not going to debate you further!

Just to clarify: I mean tariffs Trump introduced since he became president this year.

Quote:#15 = Read the fucking Constitution!  Don't make me do it for you!  The balance of power is clearly laid out, and not Biden, nor Trump, nor anyone else has any say in the matter, short of amending the Constitution.  Don't ask stupid questions and expect to get nice answers!  Like, really!!  That was a jackass question!

We agree, then. I included the question because I've seen Trump supporters argue that it's okay to concentrate power in the executive right now because it's the only way to get the things done that need to be done. There is some truth in that, of course, since congress is pretty useless, but it doesn't make it any less unconstitutional.

Quote:#17 = LOL...people like YOU!

Meaning you used to respect people like me and don't anymore? Unfortunately, that's a very common symptom of political polarization. It reminds of this excellent article.

Quote:Okay, now I have responded to all of your questions.  Not my revised questions which I thought would have made for better conversation, but rather to yours from the OP alone.

Now you can never say I didn't respond, or come up with some other sideways argument which you seemingly just love to do.

You have not, in fact, responded to all of my questions. You're still ignoring the important ones. Is it because you actually need to engage your brain to answer them? You certainly wouldn't be the first conservative to drop a discussion or throw a tantrum (you're doing both) when you're finding your preconceptions and opinions properly challenged.

Given you have shown your inability to have a respectful discussion, or even to read, I'm not losing sleep over your cowardly retreat. You want to go back to your comfy echo chamber? Fine with me. I hope you find the courage to come out one day.

[user: TokenLiberal has been Ignored]

A very American centric quiz. Here is the Australian version:

On a scale of -10 to +10, how would you rate the Australian government as a bunch of drongos?
Me: +8 (I would have given them a +10 except the phrase "scraping the bottom of the political barrel" equates with "famous last words".)

Note:
Drongo
Dumbass, idiot (Aussie slang)
"It doesn't go in the shed, ya drongo!"

From the Urban Dictionary.